Turbo Forenza wagon in the works

[ACFerret]

Hey I was seeking advice on a turbo project for the 2.0 forenza motor and I bumped into a forum meber Exist3nc3 who reffered me here.

Its coming along and I'm doing all the work myself. So far I have a turbo, a bunch of plumbing bov wastegate. I have installed an intercooler and piped it to the intake, I have tapped and capped my oil pan, and I am making a custom bolt on adaptor to bolt the turbo to the original exhaust manifold in the works, but I'm away on a buisness trip this weekend so I havnt been to timely on picking up the parts from the machine shop.

I have a plan for fuel and I want an opinion,

its my understanding that a map sensor works like this.....over the range of 0-1 atm. It received 5v in and puts out a lower voltage as an output upto 5v depending on the pressure. My idea is to replace it with a 2 bar map sensor operating on the same voltage input, what should happen is that the voltage output to the computer would be exactly half of what the original sensor is, so the computer shouldn't be displaying any CEL for moderate boost. And since injector pulse is directly proportional to the pressure as far as I'm aware, it will operate normally except all injector pulses for periods below one atm will be half of what they were before the turbo was installed..

Its my understanding that all fuel calculations are linear, so. I should be able to make a fixed and constant change on fuel pressure so even though it always opens the injector for half the time, twice as much fuel will be sent, I think using an adjustable fuel pressure reg, higher pressure, and bigger injectors, I can make it work. Does this seem plausable? I just scored a 2 bar map sensor today for ten bucks so I'm hoping it can happen soon.

Ross

[exist3nce]

Hello Ross,

Good to see that you signed up for an account here.

I have received your email, just have been a bit busy to properly answer it. I figure for the benefit of everyone, I might as well just post and answer your questions here.

If you haven't browsed through my thread, you may want to look at the rest of it as there are many pictures and explanations.

As for your proposed plan for fuel.... putting in a 2bar MAP sensor in place of the 1 bar and then doubling the injector size or doubling the fuel pressure:

I believe in theory that would work for a rough compensation, but I wouldn't rely on it outright without a wideband Air/Fuel meter to see how far off you are. Another immediate problem pops into my head though, the computer also uses the MAP signal for spark advance timing as well... so throwing a different MAP sensor in there that constantly outputs lower voltage would really throw off the timing. The timing would be way more advanced (because the ECU would think there is less load) in all situations, which is not good for your application.

As for what is required to convert to return fuel system, see this part of my thread:
http://daewootech.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... &start=645

There doesn't appear to be any way to adjust the in tank regulator, other than blocking it outright, so that 100% of the fuel is sent to the engine and then use a traditional regulator to bleed fuel back to the tank through a return line.

[ACFerret]

Ok, thats good to know before I jumped into that. How important is ignition timing? In the matter of speaking that its not perfectly adjusted the way that the ecu would like to have it timed for? Does the ECU drastically vary the timing of ignition by a large portion of crank roatation or is it like a couple degrees each way? Could I use some kind of programable controller that notates rpm, and received the voltage pulses, and delays them or something?

I got my 400 dollar custom tube today! It features a rectangular hole on one end, a round hole on the other, and a smaller hole in the side for wastegate piping, it was machined out of solid steel. I welded it to some plates I made and the turbo...for a short period of time.. was attatched to my car today.! cant run it untill I weld piping onto the wastegate hole because exhaust gas would pour out of it right now and melt the plastic fan holding thing on the rad. I need to hunt down a weldable steel elbow tomorrow. And im going to start running oil lines if I have time.

I want to post pictures, but I cant figure out how to do that with all the bnuttons surrounding the forum typing box, sorry for being a noob.

My goal is to use the factory computer, so that I wont have to spend 500+ on a new aftermarket one, Theres definately money to be saved if I can make it work with the stock computer. I have already accepted building basically a whole new fuel system, so I can pay any way I want with that.

So all that aside, This is my first post on the forums, so Ill tell you all who I am.

Im from Central New jersey, My name is Ross, I own an 06 forenza wagon that I push to the limits, I pull a 5x8 enclosed trailer with it, but my buisness has grown and the trailer is heavier now, so I need some turbo action to keep it pulling it at highway speeds.

Im sure you all would be happy to know that my buisness is, and my trailer is full of nothing but HID conversion kits for cars motorcycles etc so if you ever need parts of have techy questions regarding HID installations, you should make me your goto guy.

[PrecisionBoost]

I'm and experienced Electronics Engineering Tech. who has already looked at different ideas with respect to using 2bar and 3bar sensors with the factory ECU.

exist3nce hit the nail square on the head, the ignition is a huge problem in this situation.

For turbo you need to retard the ignition as opposed to advance it and yes there is a very significant difference in timing under load.

In order to make things work you really need a piggy back with ignition control.

alternatively you could use something like the MSD DIS2 which is a programable ignition system.

Given you need to retard ignition at all points it's possible you might find something cheaper to do the trick, but it needs to have the ability to change the ignition curve all the way along, not just retard the ignition 5 degrees across all points.

[exist3nce]

In regards to ignition timing, it is crucial part of making the engine run properly. Its just as important as fuel. If you are not familiar with timing, I would suggest you do some research. You can start here for an overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

The timing plays a critical role in many factors of of how the engine runs. Too little timing and you will loose power, waste gas, and possibly melt some valves (with boost). Too much timing, and you can blow the engine. Just the right amount will give you the ideal balance for all of those items. And there is no magic number that works for all cars, or even 2 of the same cars unless they both have identical setups. The timing is constantly varying, controlled by the ECU in real time as it looks MAP value, throttle position, RPM, Intake Air Temp, and Coolant Temp.

If you were to put in a 2 bar MAP sensor and double the fuel pressure or injectors, the fueling might be OK, but I don't think the car would drive well at all, even without the turbo. Throw the turbo into the mix and you would probably damage the engine pretty fast.

Here is an example of a timing map, from an EVO I think, just to show you how much the values vary. Vertical axis is RPM and horizontal is load, which you can just think of as MAP value.



Thats cool that you make a living selling HID stuff. I used to have a HKB HID kit in my stock headlights a while ago, until I went for a true projector retrofit.

Heres the projector reto.... pics span over 2 pgs http://daewootech.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... &start=420

[ACFerret]

Ok, so what kinda options do I have if I leave the map sensor and stock ecu, will ignition timing be acceptable if I use a diode on the map and it sees ampient air pressure during boos? Then I can just figure out something in paralell for mor fuel.

I would like to have parts in the mail, because after tomorrow the turbo will be physically in the car. But not driveable untill I resolve this

[Jdom84]

i was using the MSD DIS 2 programable box to retard my timing, im selling it now.. also you can use the Greddy Emanage to control timing with the right harness.. i have a Emanage that im going to sell but it doesnt have the harness because i was using the MSD unit. Let me know if you are interested in either.

I just bought a new WRX so im selling all my wow parts after i blew up my motor!

[exist3nce]

Hey Ross it would be great to see some pictures of your progress... you can post pictures by going to http://www.postimage.org, uploading them there, and then copy/paste the forum link that they give you.

If you stay with the stock MAP sensor, even though it is a 1bar, you don't have to worry about it voltage wise. You will have to worry about protecting it from boost however, so that it does not physically get damaged by the extra pressure (this is a mistake I made). You can accomplish this by using a check valve or a bleed type system like I have used, so that it sees only vacuum and ambient pressure. I can post a schematic if you need.

Based on my experience the stock ignition timing is fine for boost applications so long as the fuel is tuned correctly, however I also use 94 octane gas and water/methanol injection to keep things safe.

For fuel I don't think there's really any easy way around getting a piggyback computer such as the Emanage Ultimate. With this you can intercept the injector signals directly so that you can install much larger injectors, and yet still have the car run like stock during off boost conditions and idle. Right now I am using the Emanage Blue with the additional injectors setup which you can do as well, but it would just take a bit more fabrication and welding to make a mini injector rail to mount on the charge pipe. Also the Emanage Ultimate has air and coolant temperature compensation for fuel which the Blue does not.

[exist3nce]

i was using the MSD DIS 2 programable box to retard my timing, im selling it now.. also you can use the Greddy Emanage to control timing with the right harness.. i have a Emanage that im going to sell but it doesnt have the harness because i was using the MSD unit. Let me know if you are interested in either.

I'm assuming you are referring to the Emanage Blue.... You need a signal converting box for it to work with our ignition system. Greddy used to sell it, but it was discontinued a long time ago and is near impossible to find now. I was trying to find it several years ago, but no one was carrying it anymore.

[exist3nce]

Oh by the way, if you get your turbo setup completed in terms of the piping, oiling, etc you can still drive the car around in the meantime, just make sure you don't go into boost! To help make sure your foot isn't tempted, i would suggest making an intentional boost leak like leaving your BOV disconnected so there is a big hole in the charge pipe.

[ACFerret]

Here is the first picture I took of when I test fitted the adaptor to make sure the turbo was orientated corectly inbetween the engine and rad.

Here are some more pics of the turbo installed onto the adaptor after I finished welding it.


here is a pic of how I mounted the intercooler, the 2.5 inch piping fits perfectly under the headlights, and you only need to cut away metal on the drivers side to get pipes through. I was able to preserve my fog lamps, and A/C running it in this manor.


As of now, I have all the lines run to the trubo, and its getting new exhaust right now.

I learned, that I made a noobish mistake of mounting the turbo too low, what is happening is, when the engine is turned off oil pools in the turbo because its below the oil level, then it spits oil out into the exhaust turbine, I will have to get a pump, and "U" pipe to resolve this issue. It will be in the mail soon. However, the nature of the adaptor which is only 4 inches was as small as it could be made so it must be at that height.

Right now, I did what you suggested and removed the BOV and the car runs normally for the most part, except you do see a little bit of imporvement already which is exciting, but theres no fuel cut

[ACFerret]

For running the oil, I tapped a hole in my oil pan with a 1/4 npt thread and added a stainless steel nipple.

I also found a large plug right behind the oil pressure sensor which i drilled and also tapped with a 1/4 inch npt thread. This bolt was notoriously difficult to tap because it was so small it took about and hour and a half to make the traeds 1/8th a turn at a time in an improvised vice, i dont recomend attempting this.

The oil return pot is about 1 inch below the oil outlet of the turbo, but at the very bottom of the pan which was the only suitable location to to the obstuction of the turbo itself, this location is allowing oil to pool up in the turbo when the engine isnt running and it spits out a HUGGGGE white cloud whenever i start the motor. Its liek really bad, i almost dont want to drive the car, so that pump is on order now so I can get it asap

[PrecisionBoost]

Unfortunatly my manufacturing business keeps me really busy, but I wanted to create a circuit board to convert/adjust a 2 bar sensor to read like a 1 bar sensor.

The idea is that the voltage from the 2 bar sensor gets amplified so that it reads exactly the same as the 1 bar sensor on one output and on the other output it reads the correct voltage for the 2bar sensor.

Under boost a standard 1bar sensor can be damaged by boost, the element inside was not designed to see boost so it will flex too much and crack at a certain boost level.

Some guys use various check valves to try and stop the boost from hitting the MAP sensor but there is allways some delay involved that can cause the ECU to do strange things.

With the 2 Bar and MAP scaler you don't have to worry about it.

The other thing I wanted to do is create an electronic adjustable fuel regulator.

you feed in the raw signal from the 2Bar sensor and create your own fuel pressure maps to help adjust for larger injectors or the need for more fuel with the your stock injectors.

Most piggy back units simply modify the MAP and IAT signal, this only works as an adjustment to a certain point and again you quite often run into issues with timing being off.

With an electronic programable fuel pressure regulator you would not be modifying the MAP, or if need be you could actually adjust it the other way to retard the timing a little.

If you set up the MAP to retard timing it means you would typcially be running lean, but with the electronic fuel pressure regulator you could simply adjust it further.

I even thought about adding an "auto tune" feature where you plug in a wide band sensor, feed it data on target air fuel vs RPM at wide open throttle and away you go.


One of these days I hope to get at some of this, but until then your choices are limited.

[exist3nce]

Thats the problem with using the stock manifold, it will put the turbo very low down and oil will not drain properly. Looks like you will have that fixed with the sump system tho. Hopefully you get it fixed soon, because improper oil drain will kill the turbo seals, and then your turbo will leak oil all the time. Let us know how it goes...

[ACFerret]

Oh man, major issues going on, the turbo melted the main wiring harness that runs under the rad, I had to cut, solder and reroute about 30 wires which took a long time, but anyways, its no longer an issue because the wiring is now inside the bumper.

I have an oil pump coming, I am going to put it slightly below the turbo and have it pump oil up an inverted " U". Shaped pipe and then down into the oil pan port so that oil won't feed back into the turbo.

I'm not even driving the car untill I get it installed, when the cvar is parked the turbo floods and when you start the car SOOOOO MUCH Smoke comes out its rediculous. It smokes for like 3 miles of driving untill it all burns off.

Aside from the negetive aspects, its in, it has oil, I took off the bov like you said and the car drives mostly normal aside from the above.

I think I want to get a fuel system that works like this...

Get larger injectors, and use a piggy back modules that goes inbetween the injector harness and the injectors but features the ability to read a map sensor.


I could use my two bar map sensor on the secondary computer and you could tune it to lengthen or shorten the injector pulses accordingly, this is similar to what the power commander units do for streetbikes. Do they make units like this? This way, I won't have to do anything other than get new injectors