What engine could produce more hp?? sohc or dohc?

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PrecisionBoost
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Post by PrecisionBoost »

mr_g wrote: 2.0 8V (C20NE) produce 115HP and 150Nm...
2.0 16V (C20XE) produce 150HP and 200Nm...

They are almost the same except pistons, and head...
What the hell are you talking about... they are not even close... the C20NE runs 9.2:1 compression where as the C20XE runs 10.5:1

Your numbers are wrong.... the C20NE makes 170 Nm and the C20XE makes 196Nm

Again... the C20NE was not designed to be powerfull, it had very mild cams to give it better fuel efficency.

The C20XE was designed as their top of the line naturally aspirated engine... the cams are way more agressive and it was built for power.

Again... apples to oranges

C20XE made a maximum torque of 145 ft-lb at 4600 RPM

C20NE made a maximum torque of 125 ft-lb at 2600 RPM

I can guarantee that the C20NE made way more power at 2500 RPM than the C20XE.... and that is with a really low compression ratio

If the C20NE ran 10.5:1 compression pistons I bet any money that it would make at least 145 lbft of torque down at 2600 RPM making it more powerfull than the C20XE at low and mid RPM levels.


It all comes down to torque..... horsepower is not a "real" measurement ... here is the calculation

Horsepower = ( torque X RPM ) / 5252

Horsepower is allways a calculated value when running on a dyno... the dyno measures torque because that is what is making your wheels spin.


Don't get me wrong, horsepower is a usefull number even if it is a "calculated" magic number because it takes the RPM into consideration.
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Post by jorge »

Ok. I understand the sohc engine produce more at low-mid rpms? true? and the dohc at high rpms?
Ok you say 1-2k are low rpm? 2-4mid rpm? and 4-5800 are high?
If this is true I can understand the sohc is better because is more time 1-4k rpm vs. the dohc who only produce 4-5800rpm.?
Thats true or not?
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Post by mr_g »

jorge wrote:Yes my two lanos are manuals, the lanos 1.6 who I race are automatic, but is 1.6vs1.5. Mr g I understand you but I only say my personal expierence. In my lanos I win to 2.0 lancers, Hyunday Accents 98 and 2005. Mitsubishi mirage 1.5 and 1.8, Toyota echo, Volkswagen golf 95, so I dont know if my car is a aborted one but runs good with a simple 1.5 sohc engine.
And other thing who I see, the 1.6 engine is more $$$ to mantain and repair it, are two tensioners, 16 valves and more, the 1.5 are one tensioner and 8 valves. But if you say a dohc engine produce more fine thats the only thing who I want to know. Thanks...
1.6 automatic and manual are two different things... I had 9+s in 0-60 and 17+s in 1/4 mile, without opening engine... ;)
Think about headworks... My C20XE went mad after headworks... 8)
PrecisionBoost wrote:
mr_g wrote:DOHC is superior in any way to SOHC. SOHC is only better in that way
Anyways, that thing about mid range and high end is nonsense... A16DM has VGIS (variable geometry inlet system), and if you get beaten by 1.5, means your 1.6 16V is broken or VGIS doesn't work...
Sorry man, I don't like the fact that your misleading people with the thing "nonsense" comment

I have to say that you don't know anything about volumetric efficency and cylinder filling if you think that a DOHC is superior to a SOHC in low/mid range.

The VGIS system has nothing to do with the valvetrain layout.... the VGIS improves efficency by tuning the runners for particular RPM.


So..... on to the technical stuff.

Obviously the whole goal is to get as much air into the cylinder as possible during each stroke.

The port size is a big factor in how well the cylinder fills, and the port size is directly related to the number of valves.


At low RPM most DOHC engines are less efficent because they have too low of a port velocity to fill the cylinder and burn efficently.

Basicly the square area of the port is the determining factor for velocity

A DOHC has two ports, and overall the ports are usually significantly larger than the SOHC engines.


I will equate it to something simple so people can understand....

Imagine blowing air through a small straw, then switching to a larger straw.

The air coming out of the small straw is very fast, the air coming out of the larger straw is slow

The resistance in the small straw is fine when your not blowing hard but as soon as you really try to blow it starts to give resistance.

The resistance in the big straw is next to zero when your not blowing hard and as you blow harder the resistance only increases slightly.


So a SOHC engine will have a smaller port area and therefore it will offer more resistance to airflow at high RPM

But at lower RPM the air entering the cylinder will be coming in very fast which helps the air/fuel mix better and burn better (producing more torque/power at low/mid RPM )


A DOHC on the other hand has a low port velocity at lower RPM levels and therefore the air/fuel mix doesn't burn as well ( resulting in less torque/power at low/mid RPM )

At higher RPM the port velocity starts to rise quickly and the engine becomes more efficent.

At higher RPM the larger port area allows for less air resitance and therefore more air getting into the cylinder.


In short the DOHC is the best engine for racing but the SOHC is better for every day driving.


When your racing you keep the DOHC up into it's peak power range which makes the car faster.


However.... if you race a DOHC against a SOHC and shift at 3000 RPM the SOHC will kick the ass of the DOHC


That is also the reason why a SOHC will get better fuel efficency if your driving like a granny shifting at relatively low RPM.

The fuel efficency is directly related to the percentage of fuel/air that burns during each cycle.

Higher port velocities will result in a better burn (larger percentage of air/fuel burnt ) during each cycle.


This again is the reason why some companies run their engines like my Mazdaspeed3 MZR 2.3L DISI turbo as a Single overhead valve at low/mid RPM and then open up the other port to be a Dual overhead valve at high RPM.

Hopefully I've made sense of the SOHC vs DOHC issues.... and please don't consider it nonsense as mr_g would suggest.

If it wasn't true then companies like Mazda wouldn't be going through the hassle of adding a restrictor on one of the valve paths.

Keep in mind my Mazda makes nearly 300lbft of torque and still manages to get 25 MPG when I drive the crap out of it on a daily basis.
Everything you write is true... That's why DOHC engines runs bigger CR... To better burn fuel in mid range...
Never the less, you confirmed that DOHC is superior.. For racing, for sure.. If there are variable valves, then in any aspect...

If I remember corectly, the guy was asking about racing engine with is better 1.6 8v od 16 16V, and I told him.. Right? ;)
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Post by mr_g »

PrecisionBoost wrote: If the C20NE ran 10.5:1 compression pistons I bet any money that it would make at least 145 lbft of torque down at 2600 RPM making it more powerfull than the C20XE at low and mid RPM levels.


It all comes down to torque..... horsepower is not a "real" measurement ... here is the calculation

Horsepower = ( torque X RPM ) / 5252
Bigger CR wouldn't give more power... If would give more torque in mid range... But it is dead until 5500rpm, where DOHC just kicks in... :D

And of course, bigger absolute torque means shit, where the torque/rpm graph really counts... Just compare C20NE and C20XE torque/rpm graph...

Torque is nothing, if it is low... Keeping 125lbs of torque, up to 7000rpm would kick ass (do the math :D ) and 125lbs of torque only on 5000rpm... Just do the math...

If you keep lets say 200Nm of torque, up to the 7100rpm, you get over 200HP!!!! On the same engine... But there is only as small as 160Nm on 7000rpm and that is bad... Just 160HP... :(

Tuned C20XE (2.0 16V) with ITB's and torque maintained up to 8000rpm will give 250HP on 8000rpm...

As I sad before, the guy was asking for a better performance for racing... :roll:
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Post by mr_g »

jorge wrote:Ok. I understand the sohc engine produce more at low-mid rpms? true? and the dohc at high rpms?
Ok you say 1-2k are low rpm? 2-4mid rpm? and 4-5800 are high?
If this is true I can understand the sohc is better because is more time 1-4k rpm vs. the dohc who only produce 4-5800rpm.?
Thats true or not?
When I drive my car in the city (traffic lights, etc), I drive it from 2000rpm to 2500rpm, and I'm faster than big majority of the cars (short stock lanos sport gearbox and 160Nm of torque right from 2000rpm)... But when somebody is trying to race, I just let rpms to build up... At 5000rpm I get ass kicked and the guys are behind me...

To verify my story, here is dyno plot of C20XE (it's on wheels)...

As you can see, torque line is almost streight just from 2000rpm and slowly bilds up to 5000rpm... I don't have C20NE plot so I could show you what I mean...
So C20XE is superior in any way, mid range, or top end to C20NE...

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Post by jorge »

1.6 automatic and manual are two different things... I had 9+s in 0-60 and 17+s in 1/4 mile, without opening engine...
Think about headworks... My C20XE went mad after headworks...



Mr. G. I know a 1.6 automatic vs. a 1.6 manual are diferent but I say I in my 1.5 sohc lanos manual I win to a 1.6 automatic are 25 hp of difference....
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Post by mr_g »

jorge wrote:1.6 automatic and manual are two different things... I had 9+s in 0-60 and 17+s in 1/4 mile, without opening engine...
Think about headworks... My C20XE went mad after headworks...



Mr. G. I know a 1.6 automatic vs. a 1.6 manual are diferent but I say I in my 1.5 sohc lanos manual I win to a 1.6 automatic are 25 hp of difference....
Of course... But that doesn't mean that 1.6 is worst than 1.5... Does it? Automatic gearbox is heavier, 1.6 lanos has ABS, servo, A/C, so it's at least 100lbs heavier... And if it has stock 185/60-R14 kumho tires... :lol:

Look after the headworks on MAHA dyno-brake... This is 100% accurate. On 10.9:1 CR, and head ported, tapered and polished...

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Post by jorge »

Ok tomorow I can tell us how respond the lanos 1.6 sohc today I start building up the engine.
And for the questions about the 1.6 has ABS,servo, ac, and stock 185/60-r14. Is true the only thing who the guy not have in he's lanos are the ABS. But in my lanos I have 195/50-r15 tires... And I run with the AC on...

More info coming soon...
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Post by jorge »

Ok, the car is finished a 1.6sohc engine, I need to know what is the difference betwen 1.5 and 1.6 injectors... I need more air/fuel...
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Post by MMamdouh »

difference between them is rather minimalistic that you can neglect it... i am running BOSCH injectors that came off a 1600 BMW E30 on my 1.5 SOHC and got no fuel issues whatsoever

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Post by jorge »

Ok the car is working good. But only pull out over 4krpm or over... I continue preffer the 1.5sohc...
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Post by Speedball »

@Mr G - I agree with everything you said but one thing - You must compare C20XE with C20SEH because of the CR.

DOHC engines produce more power but OHC have stronger cyl. heads. :D




PS: I'am new here and sorry for my bad english :oops:
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SOHC vs DOHC

Post by pheyden »

The question is whether a SOHC motor is better than a DOHC motor. I will try and define better a bit later.

The very first consideration that must be born in mind is that you must start off with equal platforms, otherwise there is nothing to compare. That means two engines with the same displacement and the same compression at the very least. Forget about nitrous for now, as it throws yet another variable into the equation.

The next thing is to compare the intake and exhaust systems that are in use on both engines. As far as intakes go, both cars shoud be equipped with the same type of fuel injection and the same type of throttle body.

Finally both engines should be equipped with the same type of exhaust manifold.

Remember that the question was whether a SOHC cam motor was better than a DOHC motor. Really the only way to find out for sure is to build two motors and run them back to back on a chassis dynamometer. However failing that, putting all of the specifications for the two motors into a simulation package will give almost as good a result.

I am not an expert on these types of motors, but if someone will give me the following particulars on the two motors in question, I am more than happy to run them through my model and then put the results here for everyone to see.

I need:

Bore
Stroke
Rod length
main bearing diameter
rod bearing diameter
Compression ratio
Type of piston (domed, flat top etc)
Number of rings per piston
# of valves per cylinder
Intake valve diameter
Exhaust valve diameter
Inlet port diameter at the intake manifold flange
Inlet port length from manifold flange to back of intake valve
Exhaust port Diameter at the header flange
Exhaust port length
Primary header diameter
Primary header tube length
Collector diameter
Collector length
Camshaft duration at 0.050 lift
Intake lobe center
Exhaust lobe center
Intake lobe lift
Exhaust lobe lift

Looking forward to doing the model for these two motors.

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
Scuderia Topolino
www.scuderiatopolino.com
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Post by jorge »

Ok here the results but with some fails what I am changing to go again to the dyno to get the real results.
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