Lanos will not run after rebuild from broken timing belt

[gb2615]

Hi everyone,
I have a Lanos 1997 1.6L Manual Hatchback. It has an A16DMS type engine with no modifications.

The problem began with a broken timing belt. I took the head off and replaced all valves, valve seals and guides before putting the engine back together. I made sure the timing marks were all aligned when refitting the new timing belt and fitted new spark plugs as well. I cranked the engine with no spark plugs fitted to get the oil circulating before giving the motor a successful compression test. I ensured all the hoses, vacuum pipes and sensor connectors were clean and tight. I thought everything would be ready to go.

With the spark plugs fitted and leads correctly attached, I tried cranking the engine. The engine cranked, fired on just a few strokes but refused to run. It does not seem to matter if I crank for a short or a long time, the result is just the same. Every now and then an odd stroke will fire but then just more cranking.

Firstly I checked the spark by taking all the spark plugs out and lying them on the engine head while cranking. They all fire - 1 and 4 together, 2 and 3 together. I have double and triple checked which plug goes to which output from the coil and have checked that I am interpretting the piston order correctly for the motor. 1-2-3-4 left to right (timing belt to fly wheel).
My thoughts then went to fuel. I thought maybe the fuel was stale so drained the tank and replaced the fuel with new fuel. When the key is first turned, the pump runs for the standard 2 secs and if I take the line connection off the return side of the injector rail, I get a spray of petrol. So I am still not certain on fuel and I have even removed the injectors and rail and watched all of them squirt petrol into a container as the engine cranks. So with spark, fuel and compression, off I go to the diagnostic codes.

This model Lanos has the older style ALDL connector, so I bridged the terminals to get the codes. Only code to appear was an 87 - "A/C Cut Shorted to Ground". To double check the ECM, I disconnected a couple of sensor and recranked the engine and got codes appropriate to the sensor reading high etc. I reconnected the sensors and cleared the codes. Recranked the engine and again checked for codes only to get an 87 - "A/C Cut Shorted to Ground" again. So I don't think the ECM is faulty.

Now I am stuck.

The only thing I can find is that if I hold the accelerator flat to the floor, after the excess petrol is consumed, the engine nearly runs but then as soon I remove my foot from the pedal it goes back to normal cranking again with only the occasional sputter.

I would really appreciate any comments or suggestions as to what to try next.

[MMamdouh]

you have checked everything so far... this is damn confusing!

timig is OK
tension is OK
compression is OK
fuel feed is OK
spark is OK
spark plugs/leds assignment is OK

if your crank sensor is bad it won't start at WOT and you won't get spark

if your MAP is disconnected it would throw a DTC and the car will start

same will happen if you have bad O2 sensor

i am confused

MMamdouh

[gb2615]

Thanks for the input, MMamdouh.
I've read through many posts on this site to see if I can get a lead on what to do next.
I have run out of different ways to ask about an engine that won't run.

It seems like it might be flooding given it will nearly start if I open the throttle (which turns off the injectors). This also happens when I disconnect the connector to the injectors but of course it then runs out of fuel. From what I have read, during start, the length of time that the injectors spray is controlled by the throttle sensor and the coolant temperature sensor only. I have check both of these and their operation seems normal compared with repair manual values. I have back probed the ecm where these feeds connect and these also show normal or expected readings.

I am wondering what happens if the EST part of the ECM fails.
I read one post by John Trickle regarding EST and wondered if there was a way I could check if this part of the ECM had failed and that somehow the engine was trying to start on some "default" timing. There are some diagnostic codes that should show for failures of parts of the ECM but given that I am getting spark and no codes for this type of thing, I don't know if I should pursue this.

Can anyone advise how I can actually check what the advance is for this type of Electronic Spark Timing control?

I also saw one post about a Lanos not being able to start although engine cranks because of loose connectors near the fuse panel but have checked all these, as well. I have also checked and cleaned the earthing connection for much of the engine wiring located behind the air intake box but this didn't make any difference.

I am happy to try anything at this stage that I haven't already checked. I will even re-check items if more information is needed.

[ziemniak_PL]

Check the whole intake connecyions - maybe it gets some faulty air - something is dosconnected or not properly connected.
If not, the only thing I might think abbout - check the timing belt again - if there is fuel AND spark, so it has to be given in a bad moment.
Greets

[gb2615]

Hi ziemniak
Thanks for thinking about this. I will check again what you suggest and feed back the results.

I have already done the following although I did not state it previously. I also considered air leakage a cause of my problem. I have tried taking the air intake pipe off just before the throttle housing and holding my hand over the intake. There is a strong suction when cranking but not enough to pull the skin off you hand. I considered this was OK since there is a small pipe from behind the throttle body to the camshaft cover which would let in some air.
I also thought the EGR might be leaking air into the intake and took that off for a good look but it seems to be in order. The EGR valve will hold a vacuum so I assume the diaphram is OK also.
I have tried to find a vacuum hose connection diagram for this car but have not been successful. If anyone can point me to one it would be appreciated. That being said, I believe I have the connections correct based on physical hose lengths and bits of other diagrams or pictures I have looked at in the repair manual.

If anyone can tell me how to use a timing gun on this engine so I can get an idea of the spark advance that is occurring, it would be very much appreciated.

[Spider]

Hi everyone,
I have a Lanos 1997 1.6L Manual Hatchback. It has an A16DMS type engine with no modifications.

"The problem began with a broken timing belt..............................."

Hey gb2615,

My question to you is:
How was the engine running prior to the timing belt breaking ?
If it was running good ? Than it stands to reason that somehow in your work (even though you seem to have everything covered) something has not been done correctly.
If I were you? I would go back and recheck everything that has been done.
Plus use a meter to check all electrical values and connections.
Also? Along with the new t-belt, did you replace the water-pump and the tensioner pulley as well?
Remember,
The timing is very critical, all marks must be in perfect alignment. Cam position and crankshaft pulley marks and lower cover (tin) marks too.

Good luck !


EDIT:
an afterthought.........
p.s. If any of the valves are not opening enough or 'hanging up', your engine won't start.
Did you re-use the old hydraulic lifters? And if so? Did you put each one back in the same bore it came out of?

[gb2615]

My question to you is:
How was the engine running prior to the timing belt breaking ?.........

Hi Spider
Thanks for looking at this. The engine was running fine before the timing belt break.
I was just going to work in the morning, got a couple of kms from home, went to brake for an upcoming intersection and next no power. Got the car towed home. Took off the timing belt cover to find a belt missing lots of teeth.
Tried a compression test - all pistons showed no compression. Pulled off the head and found every valve bent.
The rest of the story is as above.
I did not replace the water pump or tensioner, although perhaps I should have. I have triple checked that I have the correct belt for the engine and it matches the old one except it has more teeth (sad laugh).
Since reading your reply, I have again gone and taken the belt covers off and the crankshaft pulley and checked all the timing marks are aligned. The 2 camshaft pulley marks and the arrow on the crankshaft pully pointing to the V on the bottom of the tin belt cover. (I have already done this once before since the original assembly because I thought it could be wrong.) But alas everything is aligned.
Just tonight, I have got hold of an inductive timing gun and clipped it onto the spark plug lead for piston 1. I have then had a friend crank the engine while I watch the marks on the camshaft pulleys. and is shows that sparking is occuring just a fraction before or nearly exactly on the moment when the camshaft pulley marks align themselves. So now I am pretty certain that I have got the timing correct unless it should be firing at say 10 degrees before top dead centre.
Certainly when I have tried the light on a running engine in another type of car, the timing shows a running engine to have an advance timing and this is correct as far as my knowledge goes.
I am unsure if there should be any advance operating during cranking since the revolutions are so slow.
Perhaps someone can confirm this or set me straight on this matter.

I did reuse the old hydraulic valve lifters and made sure that all the parts taken out when dismantling went back in the same places. I did this using some bases of egg cartons and shoe boxes to hold the bits in physical layout similar to engine postion from which they came. Also marked the boxes and drew pictures of the order of things removed. If the valves were sticking open then it should not have given me a good compression test. (I have repeated this a couple of times now, just to check.) I get readings close to 700 kpa on all pistons.

I am quite happy to admit I have made a mistake somewhere but everything I test keeps showing up normal or expected. The frustrating thing is the engine just will not run.

[Pir0]

Seems you've done everything fine to me :/

Bet it's something really dicky and a sensor's got knocked off somewhere when you put the head on or something. Sorry bout the lack of technical advise but i've really no idea :/


Good luck with it m8, hope ya get it sorted soon.

[Turtle_Wax]

I can't remember if it was a Lanos or Nexia, but someone else had similar problems after fitting new valves & cambelt after a belt failure. In that case he forgot to connect an earth cable at the back of the cylinder head (was hard to spot). Like I say, not sure if it was the lanny or Nexia but worth a check to make sure all connections are ok.

[Pir0]

Only earth i even remember on a nexia at the back of the head was the earth from the alternator. Unless i'm mistaken, it musta been a lanos.

[gb2615]

Only earth i even remember on a nexia at the back of the head was the earth from the alternator. Unless i'm mistaken, it musta been a lanos.

Thanks Turtle_Wax and PirO
Funny you mention an earth connection at the back of the head. There is one that bolts on to the intake manifold on the righthand end. I noted this when I put the engine back together and made a slight modification.
When I took the engine apart, I noted that the earth connection was under the nut that actually bolts the intake manifold on. I thought this was not so good since the connection gets twisted by the rotating nut when putting the manifold back on. Therefore in my wisdom, I have placed the connection on top of the nut holding the manifold on and have added another nut on top just for the earth connection.
I will certainly check this connection tonight. Maybe what I have done has made the connection bad. I will let you know what I find.
Thanks for menitioning this.

[Spider]

Well gb2615,
You are a very thorough mechanic. And your descriptions of your work are very helpful.

Going through my lanos Factory Service Manual and for the 1.6.DOCH engine (automatic or manual transmission) I find the following:
(Actually, the same information is for the 1.5 SOHC as well)

Ignition timing~10 degrees before top dead center.
Firing order~1-3-4-2 Look closely at the coil-pack (top's) the cylinder location numbers should be embossed on them.
The cylinders are numbered~1-2-3-4 (From right to left as viewed from the vehicle's drivers seat)
Speaking of the coil-packs ? Make sure your battery is fully charged. The battery voltage (positive/primary) input (wire) that feeds the coil pack's needs to be at least 12.5 (more is better) VDC. Check that with your multimeter set to 20vdc and the ignition key switched on.

I think if you have a good ground (earth?) on the engine block along with the bolt/nuts you mentioned? Should be adequate.

Have you checked to see if the Crankshaft Position Sensor is well connected? Also, the camshaft sensor ? Hooked up tight?

If anything else comes to mind? I will edit and add to this.

[gb2615]

Thanks Spider for the research you have done on this issue.

Thanks to this great site, some weeks ago I was able to download (what I consider to be) a complete workshop manual for my 1997 Lanos 1.6LT DOHC 5spd manual. I wish I had had it available when I took the engine apart, it would have just made life a little easier and quicker. Much of my diagnosis I have taken by following processes outlined in this manual plus other tips and some past experience with other cars.

As indicated earlier (and as you have stated), the cyclinders are numbered 1-2-3-4 but this is viewed standing infront of the car looking towards the firewall.
The firing order is 1-3-4-2 but the split coil and wasted spark ignition method means you can hook 1 and 4 cylinder to either connection of 1 and 4 on the coil and similar for 2 and 3 cylinder to either the 2 and 3 coil connections. The cylinder numbering is quite clear on the coil. I have checked this several times after reading other posts on this site.

I haven't been able to re-check and record every voltage again but here are some I have checked again tonight. I am using a good digital voltmeter and the car battery is both new and fully charged. I have already destroyed one battery from all the cranking.

Measured Voltages
CTS at ECM 2.199 V coolant temp is approx 20C (70F) degrees
TPS at ECM 0.638 V at idle 4.555 at full throttle

I am listing the voltages measured at the ECM since this must be what the electronics would be seeing and reacting to. I will list more voltages when I can get more time to measure and post here.

The Crankshaft Position Sensor connector is clean and tight. There is no camshaft sensor on this model engine. It uses the output of the CPS and a process called EST - Electronic Spark Timing to give the correct advance. I am going to try to go to a car wreckers on the weekend and get another coil if possible. I will try this.

I also intend to pull the intake manifold off again and have another look around but this will take time and so will have to be on the weekend.

Still happy to look at other things if people suggest something.

[daewoomofo]

there IS a cam sensor on the lanos 1.6 dohc. there was a recall on alot of the lanos's (i think it was from 99 and up, certain vin numbers) it was for the cam sensor.

thats it where it plugs in. if you can take the plastic cover off of the top of your engine. see if its pluged in. its easy and worth a shot.

[gb2615]

Hi daewoomofo
Thanks for your comments. I appreciate the effort you took in adding a picture.
I have a Lanos 1997 1.6L Manual Hatchback. It has an DOHC A16DMS type engine with no modifications.
The 1999 Lanos may have a camshaft sensor but I haven't come across it in any of my disassembly/assembly of the engine.
I have reproduced an excerpt from the repair manual for this car -
------------------------------------------------------
IGNITION SYSTEM OPERATION
This ignition system does not use a conventional distributor and coil. It uses a crankshaft position sensor (CPS) input to the electronic control module (ECM). The ECM then determines electronic spark timing (EST) and triggers the direct ignition system (DIS) ignition coil.
This type of distributorless ignition system uses a "waste spark" method of spark distribution. Each cylinder is paired with the cylinder that is opposite it (1-4 or 2-3). The spark occurs simultaneously in the cylinder coming up on the compression stroke. The cylinder on the exhaust stroke requires very little of the available energy to fire the spark plug. The remaining energy is available to the spark plug in the cylinder on the compression stroke.
These systems use the EST signal from the ECM to control the EST. The ECM uses the following information:
- Engine load (manifold pressure or vacuum)
- Atmospheric (barometric) pressure.
- Engine temperature.
- Intake air temperature.
- Crankshaft position.
- Engine speed (rpm).
-----------------------------------------------------
As you can see, there is no mention of a camshaft sensor. My Lanos engine doesn't have the sensor located as shown in your picture.

I was wondering if someone could tell me what the "rpm" of a cranking engine should be?